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New York City belly dancer Zobeida on Anahid Sofian’s floor work, how to dance to 9/8 Turkish Roma style and how to find time to dance when you have kids.

Alicia Free:

This one goes out to all you mamas out there. This interview really spotlights some of the struggles of being a mother and being a belly dancer. We recorded it way before coronavirus and I waited to release it around Mother’s Day to make it really special. That’s why we don’t talk about coronavirus at all and why the guest, Zobeida, has a fun workshop coming up. I apologize for the quality of the recording. She had her kids chasing her through the house and was going to different rooms to get better reception. The sound quality is not great, but what Zobeida says is really a gift to all of us who have moms, are moms, want to be moms, respect moms, so please enjoy.

Alicia Free:

Zobeida Ghattas is a fabulous dancer based in New York city, and her beautiful name and her heritage is Arabic and also Russian. She has studied with Anahid Sofian and Morocco and started dancing when she was only seven years old. Zobeida started working as a professional belly dancer at the age of 15 in clubs and restaurants. Zobeida has been teaching since she was 16. She actually put on belly dance showcases when she was still in high school. Do you have family that danced? I see you have an Arabic background.

Zobeida Ghattas:

No, I don’t have anybody else who dances except my daughter now. She says she wants to be a belly dancer when she grows up. I’m like, “Oh, honey. Okay.” I’m pretty sure she’s only doing it because she wants the sparkly costumes, but we’re going to continue her training and continue the legacy. Hopefully, she’ll be able to avoid a lot of the mistakes that I did when I first started out in the business and hopefully she’ll have a more solid foundation in the gig world than I did when I started. My father is Palestinian and so I grew up just always having Arabic music playing in the house. He’d start his mornings with Umm Kulthum and Fairuz, and Warda. It was just always Arabic music. My favorite tape when I was six was Sammy Clark, a Lebanese singer who was totally disco Arab pop. You look at some of his videos and it’s totally 70s. His was my favorite tape when I was growing up. It’s always been a part of my life.

Alicia Free:

You grew up with great music in the house?

Zobeida Ghattas:

Yes.

Danceable Ritual: Dance to Whatever Music is Playing in Your Home

Alicia Free:

In each episode, I have a danceable ritual and that could be shimmying while you wash your hair. It could be you do shoulder shimmies while you’re driving and you see a sign that says shoulder work. Just random times in life where it’s not a dance context, but you feel like dancing and you add dancing. Do you have anything like that?

Zobeida Ghattas:

I really gave this question some thought, and I realized I have absolutely zero ritual because life with three children is just that chaotic. The only thing that I think of is that I have kids songs playing on cartoons, on anything and sometimes I’ll just dance along to Mickey Mouse clubhouse or Pop Goes the Weasel. And I’ll do a pop and lock to Pop Goes the Weasel.

Tip for Belly Dancing Moms: Pop and lock to Pop Goes the Weasel or whatever you kids music you are listening to

That’s as dance ritually as I can get. Basically, my one suggestion would be to just dance whenever and wherever. I actually started 100 days of dance at a Facebook group to get people dancing more and becoming more engaged with dancing outside of a studio. Some of our daily dance practices included write your name using dance. Another one was go out in nature and listen to the sounds of nature and dance to the sounds of nature. Just trying to find dance in every single thing and every single day.

Alicia Free:

That’s the exact essence of the danceable ritual. You just nailed it because so many people have kids and feel like there’s no space in their life for ritual. Survival’s more what you’re thinking about at most points, but you got it in there still. That’s very cool.

How to Look Authentic When Dancing Turkish Roma Style

Alicia Free:

You look so natural and authentic when you’re dancing Turkish Roma style. Do you have any tips for that?

Zobeida Ghattas:

Get out of your head. Generally when you’re dancing, it’s a social dance. You don’t have an authentic dance training to dance socially, especially Turkish Roma.

You dance from the heart. You dance to have fun. You dance because there’s joy around you because the music inspires you.

You don’t dance because the steps say one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, pause. You dance because music moves you and if you mess up, nobody cares. I don’t overthink when I’m doing Turkish Roma, especially when there’s a live band. The music is there. You just have fun. Just get out of your head. Not forget the steps that you learned, but don’t overthink the steps that you learn and just let it come out.

Alicia Free:

Now a lot of us learn the steps first in the studio. Then, what do you do? Do you practice them a lot? Do you go into video world and see what’s going on in the real social dance world? What do you think is the next step?

Zobeida Ghattas:

The next step I would say, just put on as many 9/8 songs as you can. Blast them really loud. Feel the beat in your chest and just go. This is a tough one because it’s just always been in me. Having started dance when I was seven, I just learned things and I didn’t think about them. In a way, that’s also really hard for me to teach beginners because I have to break down steps that I’ve been doing for 20 years that come automatically.

Zobeida Ghattas:

For Turkish Roma, I would just say blast the music and start with a slow 9/8, so that you feel the nine eight and you get the steps and then speed it up.

Find a little faster nine eight, then find a really fast nine eight and just go with it. That’s the thing about dance. You’re not going to ever get better if you don’t practice. Now, whether you practice in the privacy of your own room or at a hafla or jamming out with musicians, if you’re learning a 9/8 and you don’t get up when the band is playing a 9/8, you’re never going to get better.

Alicia Free:

That’s great.

Zobeida Ghattas:

Also, so many dancers never let go. Especially with a 9/8, you have to let go. Be loose.

Alicia Free:

One of the best videos I’ve seen of just pure joy, Roma, 9/8. There’s a video of a guy dancing on the highway and he picks up a shoe. You know what video I’m talking about?

Zobeida Ghattas:

Yep. Yep. I’ve been tagged in that multiple times.

Alicia Free:

It’s pure joy in that video. It’s letting go. It’s so obvious in that. He has no inhibitions at that moment.

Zobeida Ghattas:

No. Not from your dancing by the side of the road with the shoe. Nope. There are zero. It’s all about being free, being in the moment and having a good time. Even if your steps are not correct, the feeling has to be there. The feeling is what it’s all about. Pick up a shoe, dance by the side of the road if you’re so moved, or pick up a hip scarf and practice in your living room, whichever.

Alicia Free:

Nice. With nine eight, I first learned choreography and it never felt quite right to me. I was really happy that it was being preserved and presented to me, carried on, but I never felt that I was truly in it. I wanted to be in it, but I think part of it was that I was doing choreography. I keep thinking I need to nail this choreography in order to then nail it.

Zobeida Ghattas:

As dancers, we learn choreographies and that is one tool we have in our arsenal to learn a dance that is not necessarily our own because I’m not Turkish Roma. I just feel it. I don’t dance it the way a Turkish Roma person would dance it. With the choreography, you’re trying to keep on beat. You’re trying to stay with your dance mates.

If you’re going to practice a choreography, you have to add character. Add your own spice to it. Add your own freedom to that choreography, and that will essentially help you to improvise because all it is a vocabulary that you’re learning.

Then it’s up to you to put your flavor onto it.

Alicia Free:

Beautiful. Your own emphasis, your own emotion onto it, your own accent, if you will. Right?

Zobeida Ghattas:

Your own personality really, because that’s really all it is. Your personality is on the stage. There are timid dancers. There are outgoing dancers.

The barest you’re ever going to be is when you’re in dancing because there’s no faking it.

Alicia Free:

Right. In US, a lot of dancers are very choreography-focused and they can’t imagine life apart from that choreography. But just practice the choreography with your own personality. I think that’s really, really helpful for people.

Zobeida Ghattas:

I think in a lot of belly dance today, everything is very much choreography based. But I was raised on a generation of completely improv dancers where, in one band, you could have an Armenian guy, a Greek guy, a Syrian guy, an Egyptian, and the drummer was Israeli. It could have been any combination of nationalities playing, and you never knew what you were going to get. For me, everything is all about improv and being in the moment and feeling that moment. So you could be having a crap day – and I’m not saying your dancing is going to be crap – but the crap day is going to come out. Whether it’s going to be released, whether you’re going to be a little bit more somber in how you dance. If you’re having a fantastic time, you’re at a festival, the vibe is great, the music is awesome, you’re going to have that much more fun jamming out to improv.

Just to complete my thought…

There’s a point of improv where you just let go. Let go of everything you’re thinking about and you are completely in the moment.

Now, in a choreography, you’re always going to be inside your head. You’re always going to be thinking, “What’s the next move?” Even if you’ve rehearsed it 27 times, you’re always going to be, “What’s my next move? What’s my next move?” With improv, everything just flows completely naturally. That’s a really important aspect of our dance since throughout the ages, it’s always been an improvised dance and only in its entrance to the 20th century, really with the advent of film, companies, troupes, has there been more emphasis on choreography. But improv is where it’s at.

I firmly believe that every dancer should know movement so naturally that it just flows. That’s when you get true art, because you express yourself in the moment.

Alicia Free:

I interviewed your friend, Johanna Zenobia in episodes 26 and 27 and she was saying that too, that the beauty is in the moment and being in the moment.

Zobeida Ghattas:

I firmly believe that and having studied with so many people who emphasized improv. That’s just stayed with me throughout my whole entire career, which is now 20 years.

Alicia Free:

Nice.

Danceable Song: Allah Eilek Ya Sidi

Alicia Free:

Do you have a danceable song that you would like to share?

Zobeida Ghattas:

I do have a song that will always get me up out of my seat, which is Allah Aliek Ya Sidi. It’s been one of my favorite songs for pretty much since it came out. It’s got a great beat. It’s uplifting. It’s fun to dance to. It’s very Egyptian. It’s always fun.

Alicia Free:

This is a fun song that I hadn’t heard before and the chorus is really catchy and it has saidi in the chorus.

Dt DD t

That double doom in the center, saidi has the double doom in the center and the words are cool.

Well done, my master. Your heart melted in my hand. He says, “Your love is not normal.” There’s hiding and there’s passion. All the good stuff.

Alicia’s transliteration of the chorus of Allah Aleik Ya Sidi:

Ahl-lah ehl-leek yah see day

Ehl-behk dehb fee ee-day

 

Zobeida Ghattas:

Then, if you’re going to go with a nine eight Rampi Rampi is always a good thing.

Alicia Free:

Oh, yeah. Rompi Rompi, yeah. I featured that one in another show. Our band plays that song too, and I love it. (aka Cadirimin Ustune)

Zobeida Ghattas:

It’s so much fun and it’s predictable enough for a novice. However, there’s layers to get into and it’s just super fun. Rompi Rompi, any version you can find will be perfect to do a nine eight with. It’s not the most authentic Turkish Roma song, but it has entered the belly dance lexicon. A lot of the shows in the 1970s and 80s and 90s closed with Rompi Rompi, or another nine eight of that caliber. That was the way you ended a five-part set.

Alicia Free:

That’s the way we end a lot of our shows too. I didn’t even realize that. We’re being vintage.

Zobeida Ghattas:

It’s a 9/8. You just go.

Alicia Free:

Wonderful. I was in a band with Harold Hagopian, the son of Richard Hagopian who was the Armenian-American oud player that made it really famous in the US. You’ve probably heard the recording, but it was fun to band with the Hagopian’s.

 

Damn Sexy Dance Move: Flatback Floor Crawl

I do. This is something that I learned from Anahid Sofian who is legit the queen of floor work. This is a knee crawl that you do while you’re in flat back. I don’t know what it is. There’s something about it that is just so “rer” (cat noise) when you’re in flat back. Your arms are up above your head. The goal in this is to let your upper body be very, very loose. As you’re in flat back, that your upper half counterbalances what your lower half is doing. You’re in flat back and you start walking with your knees, so you’re essentially crawling across the stage in flat back.

Alicia Free:

Flat back means your head is against the ground, your whole up to your butt is against the ground.

Zobeida Ghattas:

You’re on your knees. Essentially, you’re in the end of a Turkish drop. You’re inching across the floor in flat back. I swear to God, it is one of my favorite moves to do when you have a beautiful big clean stage. It’s fun and it’s unexpected. It’s not your usual floor work move, but I think essentially any kind of floor work is sexy. Any kind of floor work.

Alicia Free:

Zobeida, I just had a memory of you at super fun dance camp under a limbo stick with your hair all over the floor. Were you doing that move to go under the limbo stick?

Zobeida Ghattas:

Under the limbo stick, that’s the move I was doing.

Alicia Free:

I was like, “Oh my God, she’s totally going for it on this floor.” You just went under that stick.

Zobeida Ghattas:

Yes.

Alicia Free:

I wish I had filmed it.

Zobeida Ghattas:

Essentially, any kind of floor work is fun. When you do anything coming from flat back into like a figure eight while lying on the floor and there’s just something about connecting to the music. For example, a chiftitelli. Whether you’re listening to the clarinet, it could be a nice long clarinet note and you ooze with that clarinet or you’re on the floor and you’re shimmying because the oud is trilling. Anything floor work-related is right up my sexy galley.

Alicia Free:

It is such a treat when you have a place where that can work out, where people can see you. If you’re elevated and the floor is full of glass and beer and it’s special.

Zobeida Ghattas:

It’s no fun doing floor work on somebody’s spilled mixed drink.

Alicia Free:

That’s a good segue into a vegan whole food ingredient that you love.

Lighten My Body Food: Egyptian Koshari and Palestinian Mujadara

Zobeida Ghattas:

I’m going to highlight koshari, which it’s koshari in Egypt, or mujadara in Palestine. It is basically rice and lentils, which together combined, make a whole protein and a whole nutritionally balanced meal. In Palestine, basically mujadara is just rice, lentils and perhaps some fried onions. In Egypt, koshari is rice, lentils, a thin vermicelli noodle that is like fried and then put into the dish. Then, it’s like tubettini, the pasta on top. Then, it’s tomato sauce that goes on top of it, spiced and vinegary. It’s vinegar and/or lemon juice that goes on top of it and then the fried onions. In Egypt, koshari is a bigger production. Jadara is pretty much just rice and lentils with some fried onions and that’s the way I grew up eating it. Jadara, great food, even kids eat it. It’s quick, easy, throw it all in a pot and you have a meal that’s good for a couple of days if you make a lot of it.

Alicia Free:

What kind of lentils do you like to use?

Zobeida Ghattas:

The little flat brown ones. Oh, that’s the other difference between Egyptian style and Palestinian style is that the Palestinians use the bigger, broader lentils and Egyptians use the smaller brown lentils. Use whatever lentils you have in your kitchen cupboard.

Alicia Free:

I love lentils.

Zobeida Ghattas:

They’re very under appreciated. They’re really filling and you can make a lot of stuff with them.

Belly Dance Costume Tip: Have an assortment of safety pins in your gig bag

Alicia Free:

What is a costume tip that you’d like to share?

Zobeida Ghattas:

Hands down, I will have to say have an assortment of safety pins always. People who know me know I hate sewing hooks and everything I own is on safety pins. I will safety pin everything because it’s I never saw on hooks. Safety pins, big ones, little ones, medium sized ones, strong ones, flimsy ones. You need to have a ton of safety pins in your gig bag because I have also had mishaps where safety pins are your friend, your very good friend

Alicia Free:

Holding you together.

Zobeida Ghattas:

Pretty much.

Feel Good Look Good Habit: Dance as much as you can because dance will always make you feel good. Dance will always make you look good

Alicia Free:

Do you have a feel good, look good habit that you’d like to share?

Zobeida Ghattas:

Feel good, look good. That’s a tough one because I never feel good and I never looked good unless I’m getting ready for a show. Try to shake off as many children as you can while you’re putting on your makeup and then get your butt out the door. I have literally gotten dressed and ready for the gig while giving my kids a bath. I have been gig ready, in costume, ready to go out the door and then my daughter was like “weh” (crying). She needed to nurse. There I’m sitting in my costume on my couch, full gig attire, praying she doesn’t spit up on me.

Dance as much as you can because dance will always make you feel good. Dance will always make you look good. I always feel my best when I’m dancing. Otherwise, I’m a hot mess.

That’s really all I can offer. Once I have eyeliner on, I feel good and it’s game time.

Alicia Free:

I get ready with my kid putting all my jewelry on too, and I’m like, “I got to go,” but he wants to wear all my jewelry.

Zobeida Ghattas:

Tip for Belly Dancing Moms: Put out a decoy veil that your kids can play with and possibly ruin so they don’t mess up your gig veil.

I always have a decoy veil out when I’m getting ready because my youngest will pick up the veil that I need to take to the gig and dance around and get yogurt on it. I have a decoy and I’m like, “Oh, look at how pretty my veil is.” “Oh, I want to use it. I want to use it.” “Okay. Here you go.” Get all the yogurt you want on there. Yeah. So much for ritual.

Alicia Free:

This is going to be very mom focused. Is that cool with you?

Zobeida Ghattas:

That’s absolutely fine because essentially, that is who I am. I’ve danced through all of my pregnancies. I’ve gone to gigs with a kid in tow, having to have a friend sit in the car while I go do my gig. I’ve had some gigs where I need to bring my kids. They’re like, “Okay. Great.” I’m very much a dancing mom. I also have a blog that I keep meaning to devote some time to, which is Belly Dancing Mama. I have a Facebook page up about it, but of course, I haven’t posted anything to it in like three years because I have three kids. It’s really just about momming hard and trying hard to find time for dance in between because

I feel like my whole identity is a dancer. Mom is like a shirt I put on to cover up the dancer inside.

I can’t wait to shake the kids off and go dance, but momming takes up a lot of time and you always need to find time for yourself to dance, to refocus that energy on you because as moms, we give out so much of our energy to our tiny people. It’s really important to take some time back for ourselves, whether it’s doing pop and lock during the Mickey Mouse Clubhouse or Pop Goes the Weasel is really good for accents. (singing) Everybody knows the song.

Alicia Free:

Cool. This is beautiful.

Tell us something exciting that you have coming up in your dance life

Zobeida Ghattas:

In my dance life, I have a couple of workshops coming up. I’m teaching the gooey shifty at this fantastic little festival in Vermont called Shimmyathon. It’s the 10th anniversary and Amity is doing all live music in the classes, so that’s really, really going to be fun. I’m teaching the gooey shifty and it’s going to be all about connecting to the specific instrument for the length of the note, which is something that I talked about earlier.

Zobeida Ghattas:

Coming up, I also have a ballet for belly dancers workshop. Ballet was a part of my life for a really long time. I think it’s important that people – not cross train but – have some fundamentals of ballet to clean up lines. Probably is the foundation for so many types of dance. While it might not be the foundation for belly dance, it’s still very helpful in belly dance. I fused my ballet knowledge, my belly dance knowledge, and the experiences of both art forms to create a very unique workshop. That’s something I’m looking forward to. Each time I teach this course, it develops into something different. While the inessentials remain the same, there’s layers that I always add onto it, and I myself learn something each time I teach this course.

Alicia Free:

Nice. It’s a really fun workshops, very creative workshops. All live music festival. That’s so good.

Zobeida Ghattas:

Oh, I can’t wait. It’s going to be a lot of fun. That’s one of my favorite little festivals. Everybody is just so wonderful and Amity really tries to put together a great group of instructors and she always does a really wonderful job and I’m really happy to be a part of it again.

Alicia Free:

Nice. How would people find you online?

Zobeida Ghattas:

Everything I do is really through Facebook because I’m so professional. 20 years in the business, I still don’t have a website. Find me on Facebook. You can friend me or follow Zobeida Belly Dancer NYC or Esme’s Closet also on Facebook. The story of Esme’s Closet is that it’s actually named after my cat who would hide inside my closet and knock all of my belly dance stuff off of my shelf to sleep up in there. When I started the business, it just felt only appropriate to name it at her, my cat Esme. People sometimes ask, “Oh, are you Esme?” I’m like, “I wish I had that life. But no, that is my cat who slept, ate, and purred.”

Alicia Free:

Well, Zobeida, I want to thank you so much for being a wonderful guest even in the midst of the chaos of life. Thank you so much for making time to share what you’ve learned with our listeners and your wisdom as a mom and unstoppable dancer. It’s really wonderful. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Zobeida Ghattas:

It was my pleasure. Thanks.